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Entries in user (19)

Wednesday
Feb252009

TINYURL being used by scammers and hackers -- How to prevent it!!

With Phishing attempts going on with the TINYURL redirect website, I thought I would show you how you could prevent from going to a site you don't want. Tinyurl.com has a great little feature, although it is a feature based on your cookies. It however will help prevent you from going to a site that you don't know anything that about. It's called the Preview Feature, and is available to any user who wants to use it.

previewtiny


As you can see if you enable it and you go to a click on a tinyurl, you will see this:

http://tinyurl.com/6t7ukk

previewtiny1


[ad#ad2-right]As you can see, if you click any TINYURL links you will automatically be told where that link is redirecting you to. This however only works with there being a cookie left behind in your system to let tell Tinyurl that is has to show the link first. So if you clean your cookies out from time to time, you will need to enable it every time after you clean the browser cookies. This will help prevent you from being phished because you will be able to tell if it is the right site in the first place. If not then you don't have to visit that site. This should be enabled on all Short URL Sites, I hope they make it a mandatory for any site that redirects. This would help stop phishing and scammers because they can't hide behind unknown url. Only time will tell though, these sites are always going to have problems but this would solve so many problems.
Monday
Dec152008

Removing Win32/Bagle.HE worm

Here is another virus that seems to be spreading lately.   From the looks of it, it sees to be another email worm.  Here is what eset says:

Aliases


Email-Worm.Win32.Bagle.gt (Kaspersky), W32/Bagle.gen (McAfee), Trojan.Tooso!gen (Symantec)

[ad#ad2-right]Win32/Bagle.HE is a worm that spreads via e-mail. The size of its executable is 40565 B .

When executed the worm copies itself in the following locations:

  • Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\hidn\
    hldrrr.exe

  • Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\hidn\
    hidn2.exe


In order to be executed on every system start, the worm sets the following Registry entry:

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run\drv_st_key

[ad#ad2-left]It seems to have a manual removal process, Unless you pay for the other software but according to the 411 on PC Security:
Win32/Bagle.HE worm is a “threat” that appears in security scans by fake antispyware WinDefender 2008.

The danger of Win32/Bagle.HE worm is supposed to scare you into wasting $49.95 on WinDefender 2008.

Unless you like getting ripped off, don’t download the software the Win32/Bagle.HE worm popup links to. You’re not really infected with Win32/Bagle.HE worm — you’re infected with scamware that you need to remove.

I’ll show you how to get rid of Win32/Bagle.HE worm and WinDefender 2008, for free.

[via 411 on PC Security]

According to this site you can remove it by doing some steps.  I think Kaspersky has an easier way to remove it and it looks like most anti-virus software will remove this.   You need to remember that only you can prevent this from the future.   You should also update your windows update and make sure your system is up to date.
Sunday
Dec142008

Signs of a Computer Infection!

So I was thinking this morning what I missed and I totally missed on how you might be able to tell if you have a computer virus. It does me no good to talk about a virus if you don't know you're infected. I was thinking of the times I had a client who had trouble but wasn't what I thought.

So How do you know?


Some people would say it depends on factors but here are what I call clues that make me suspect a virus:[ad#ad2-right]

  1. Slow or Sluggish computers --  Here is what I know if the computer is really slowing down and have a dual core or quad core.  If you are running a system and sees a lot of hard drive activity even when the computer is idle then it might be a virus or it could be a program doing what it is supposed to be doing.  So this is somewhat of an indication but not always.

  2. Slow internet connection on the computer or on the network -- Due to the fact that most people have a router that is connected to all the computers and if you internet connection on all your systems are slower than normal then you could have a virus.  I use Speed Test website to help determine this.

  3. Corrupt files or Missing files --  Sometimes you have a text documents or files that are missing and you have to pay to get them back.   It's an old scheme and usually once your files have been encrypted you can't get them unencrypted.  So this is why I added this one also because it varies from virus to virus.

  4. Programs don't work like they used to --  This is also a very common association with a virus because virus makers don't have time to test it out on a variety.   Most of the time if you get a call that a program is no longer working tat would be the first thing I'd look at, if not check to see what other programs have been installed lately.

  5. In some cases more files are the Hard drive --  This can be a indication of a virus because the virus might be using the system to host files or other such illegal activity.   Although this is happening less and less it can still be a possibility and should be checked out.   I like to use a graphical tree size program to determine if that is the truth.

  6. Pop ups or Browser redirects -- this is a common thing along the way.  It's always the same and saying something like "you have a virus" or "You unprotected and you might have a virus".  The theme here is to scare the user into buying there product that does not do anything.   It sometimes even looks like a real anti-virus program or spyware program but in truth it is just a scam.  In some cases it will send you to a site because it keeps wanting you to buy the product.

  7. DNS Changes on you -- Some hackers like to have you go through there server so they can watch everything you do online.  They are wanting to get the sensitive information of bank account, and other important accounts.  This is really the ones that need to get off your system asap.


[ad#ad2-left]These are the signs I've seen in the past that would indicate a virus but as with any problem.  You will need to check for all the possibilities.   It is always going to be an issue with people because most people don't know about the signs, now you do and you can now be a better computer user.  It is you who can only fight viruses by knowing all the possible system and only you can defeat a virus.  In the next article I will talk about the tools to help you find and defeat a virus.   This will be a big blog post because I have so much to teach and explain.   If you like these post by all means leave a comment and help spread the word.
Saturday
Dec132008

Uncovering a Virus/Trojan

Getting done with the first part really got my juices flowing. I was shopping looking and thinking about this next article. I came up to only one option turning this into a 3-5 length post due to all the content that I will have.  So where did we leave off?  Oh that is right figuring out if you have a virus/Trojan.  The instant I made a post about this 12 hours later someone make a comment and here is what he said:
[ad#ad2-right]
Rene Van Belzen

I can't wait to read part two of this article. I always wondered how you'd know you're infected if a virus don't want to be detected and no virus definitions are yet available, because the virus is so new.

Now the truth is anytime a Virus does something it usually leaves a footprint somewhere and somehow.   Even the hardest working hacker can't plan for all possibilities and that is where we begin.   I have been helping people for a while with viruses and know that no matter how hard the virus tries to hide you can usually find it relatively quickly and easily do to virus check here are the ways I've done to figure out if they may or may not have a virus/Trojan.

Now if this is a client's computer and you don't want to be rude to the client, there are a few indications of user error and installing a virus.   This is relatively simple, all you do is do a quick inventory of all the start menu programs.  You'd want to look for any P2P file sharing program, If they have Firefox Installed, and if they are using Window Mail and not Thunderbird.   You see 80% to 90% of virus downloaded are installed by the End USER.  They either downloading a game and installing a virus with [ad#ad2-left]a game, or not protecting themselves by using Internet Explorer or Using Windows Mail.  That is usually my first step due to the fact, I've got to be diplomatic about finding out about security ways.  Also make sure they are up to date on there Window updates, unless they are using a really old system then you will have to work even harder.  Also you can suspect a virus if the client is talking about having problem with a program recently although this isn't always true it sometimes is the case due to the fact hackers don't have a big chance to test these viruses/Trojans out before they set them into the wild.  So there are always going to be unplanned problems associated with them.

After the first initial search of desktop, you should really know the likely hood of a possible virus getting on the system and later we will talk about counter measures to prevent virus attacks in the future.   There are a few places a hacker likes to put commands.   Hackers love to put in the Registry to run a program every time Windows starts.  It usually in:

  • HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run

  • HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\RunServices\


Usually 50% to 70% of virus like to make sure the program to runs.  This is a flaw in Windows because hackers can edit this without much effort but there isn't many places a hacker can go to make sure a program is set to run when you boot.   So this is also a benifit to finding those little programs.


Now just like the Regisitry, Hackers also like to put programs in a few areas on the hard drive.   This is also kinda hard to hide because most of the time these are consider important to the system but if you know what to look for you can pretty much figure out if it is truelly a system file.  These areas of the hard drive are:




  • C:\WINDOWS\System32[ad#ad2-right]

  • C:\WINDOWS

  • %programfiles%\common files\microsoft shared

  • %windir%\temp\


These are just a few but if you look hard enough it can be found most of the time.   Most of the time I use the registry to tell me where these programs are so I can do a further check of the program.  Some of this is not needed with some of the programs that I recommend but this is for those who want to be a through job and make sure the virus is gone.

On my next post we will talk about some good tools for the trade to help get rid of a virus/Trojan.  This little step here is used to  better help identify a virus and also give you chance to google each name on the list of registry and the hard drive  to see if you can identify the virus.
Monday
Dec082008

Facebook: Virus Variant comes back from the dead!

In my recent post, I talked about a Virus that is circulating around on Facebook.  It is know as the Koobface virus and has been changed a little by the programers.   So I what is Techworld saying, just this:

[ad#ad2-right]
In fact, Koobface is now using one of Facebook's own features against it, Lovet said. The latest variant uses Facebook's ability to redirect web links to drive users to malicious websites, often hosted on Geocities.com, Lovet said.

[Via Techworld]

If you have been victim to this little virus, you should check out my Virus removal page and download the programs that should fix this little virus for good on your system.  You should also check out my Previous post I also have some good tips and tricks to prevent the user(YOU) from getting hit by this virus in the first place. This virus is a Good social engineered virus, so please be careful.
Sunday
Dec072008

Facebook : Beware Spam for breakfast. (Virus)

In today's society, we've been to complacent with people with people clicking links for the social group. In one such article on Channel Web, a nice little blog, says this:
[ad#ad2-right]


The worm was discovered by IT security provider Kaspersky Lab, which said the threat, Net-Worm.Win32.Koobface.b, is targeting Facebook users by creating spam messages and sending them to the infected user's friends via the site.

"Unfortunately, users are very trusting of messages left by 'friends' on social networking sites," said Alexander Gostev, senior virus analyst at Kaspersky Lab, in a statement. "So, the likelihood of a user clicking on a link like this is very high."


[Via Channel Web]



This seems to be a problem people thinking that a link someone sends them is a real good link but actually is a link to a video site. According to this article the links people are sending are actually a fake video link, telling you have to download some update to flash player, by downloading this program. The user gets involved with the virus and the fun begins. So how can you prevent this from happening, two ways one is a very good group of software to make sure you have the latest and greatest video codecs. That too can be something they'll say you need and if you've already installed this list of codecs then you know they'll not telling the truth and you can quickly get away from the site laughing.


[ad#ad2-left]What's this program name, it is call the K-lite Mega Codec pack. In this Pack you will be able to play almost everything without having to go download another program. This is done by people who want you to have all the latest codecs installed so you don't have to go by a program you'll only going to use once a month.



Once you've done that, you'll no longer have to worry for the most part about codecs. There will be times when you might have to visit that site and update them but that will be far less.


The other thing you must remember is if it says you must update your player. That should be a sign that there is something. I'll always go to the site and check for example Adobe. If it says I need to update my flash I'll manually type it into my browser. This way you will know you have the latest updates, if you need to update the flash player by all means go to here and update.


If you got the virus I'd check out my Anti-virus and Anti-Spyware page and that should show you will you need to get rid of the Virus. This virus is very easy to get rid of, just download any one of the anti-virus software and install it. Don't forget to update the virus database while your at it. That should fix the problem pretty fast. Remember the only way to prevent from getting the virus is YOU.

Wednesday
Dec032008

Apple's Immunity, Botnet sanctuary.

Apple Immune?  No way!
But is Apple projecting a false sense of security just to save face? Many experts repeatedly warn that all operating systems are susceptible to viruses, and as the Mac becomes more popular OS X will inevitably become a bigger target for malicious attacks.

[via Pcworld]



Having said that I feel the notion that Apple is trying to keep there reputation as a virus free system. I can only hope that they stay that way. Which as much as I know, Apple will most like start to be the main source for botnets, because of the lack of security.



[ad#ad2-right]According to reports on this blog, people are worried Apple stance on it being the safest and having so much immunity to viruses. Apple in the past has stated they have mislead people with there firewall. Yet Apple takes down that suggestion of having an Anti-virus(Quietly).

[ad#digg-left]Everything I've seen suggest that virus writers and Malware writers will MOST likely start targeting the Mac OS X, they know Apple sense of security is Vulnerable to attack and they will exploit it more and more. So what does that mean for Apple, it just means that soon every hacker who has a botnet will want a piece of the Apple Pie and is right now.
[ad#ad2-left]As PC Trojans go, the programming features of RSPlug.E look fairly basic. PC malware is more highly evolved and usually cleverer. But a programmer - probably a Russian - with knowledge of OSX had taken time to create a Trojan that hits Macs instead of PCs, James pointed out.


[via Techworld]


Which looks like it has already begun. So what can Mac users do, get an Anti-virus and maybe Apple will have to start backing down from the Virus commercials and actually admit it. Sooner or later someone will have to challenge Apple to get them to start admitting to it.
Friday
Nov282008

Not so, Antivirus2008

[ad#ad2-left]On F-secure blog they talk about this rogue antispyware.
OK, so let's say the user (by some stroke of luckless chance, or courtesy of a trojan downloader) ends up with the demo installer of Rogue:W32/VirusRemover2008.C on their hands and it runs
[via F-Secure]

According to them, they have many different version of this rogue antispyware.  They have de, dk, es, fr, it, no, nl, and no, which are all attempting for you to buy this no so Virusremover2008 software.  They talk about how it tells you have a 9 infected viruses and that you need to remove them, but in truth, they use a text file to create this lie.  Check out all the details for further information.
Tuesday
Nov252008

Some program Vulnebilities Detected!!

Just got done looking at some of my security sites and according to SecuriTeam there are are several programs that have vulnerabilities. here are the Ones that I've found:
Google chrome is vulnerable to URI Obfuscation vulnerability.
An attacker can easily perform malicious redirection by manipulating the browser functionality. The link can not be traversed properly in status address bar.This could facilitate the impersonation of legitimate web sites in order to steal sensitive information from unsuspecting users. The URI specified with @ character with or without NULL character causes the vulnerability.


[ad#ad2-right]iPhone Configuration Web Utility for Windows Directory Traversal
iPhone Configuration Web Utility lets "you easily create, sign and distribute configuration profiles using a web browser". A vulnerability in iPhone Configuration Web Utility allows remote attackers to access files that reside outside the bounding root directory of the program's files folder.


Streamripper Multiple Buffer Overflows
Streamripper "records Shoutcast and Live365 MP3 streams to a hard disk, creating separate files for each track. Runs under Unix and Windows." Secunia Research has discovered some vulnerabilities in Streamripper, which can be exploited by malicious people to compromise a user's system.


Amaya URL Bar Stack Overflow Vulnerability
A vulnerability in Amaya browser allows remote attackers to cause it to overflow an internal buffer which in turn can be leveraged to execute arbitrary code.

These are the ones that I found and wanted to let you know about these so you can make your system even more secure.   if I find any others I'll let you know!!!
Tuesday
Nov252008

Microsoft kills a fake antivirus tool from 994,061 computers!

According to Arstechnica and I'll quote:

[ad#ad2-left]Win32/FakeSecSen has gone by various names, including Micro Antivirus 2009, MS Antivirus, Spyware Preventer, Vista Antivirus 2008, Advanced Antivirus, System Antivirus 2008, Ultimate Antivirus 2008, Windows Antivirus, XPert Antivirus, Power Antivirus, and Ultra Antivirus 2009. Furthermore, it is skinnable, so each of these variants has a different GUI, although the basic functionality is the same: bother users with warnings of malware until they pay up.

The Microsoft Malware Protection Center recently released some data on how the removal tool performed this month: FakeSecSen was removed from 994,061 machines. That number isn't the highest Microsoft has recorded before, and the number of removals depends on which malware Microsoft adds each month and how widespread it is.

[via Arstechnica]

This seemed to of happened this month with the usual Windows update.  If you haven't updated your system just yet you should.   This troublesome fake virus seems to have been killed  from several systems.  This could effectively make it harder for these guys who ever designed this program to make money.  I hope microsoft does even more virus removals in next month.  If you still want to try to get rid of these viruses don't forget to check out my tips on Virus removal.
Monday
Nov172008

Memorex releases a cheaper Blue Ray player than a PlayStation 3.


According to there website It can do this:

* Progressive scan Blu-ray Disc player 1080p capability for higher definition video content
* Full HD 1080p, DVD up-conversion up to 1080p (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p), 24p, 60p video frame rate
* Multi-channel audio content (supports more advanced Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD)
* BD-ROM, DVD-ROM, DVD, DVD-R/-RW, DVD+R/+RW, DVD-R DL, DVD+R DL, CD-ROM, CD, CD-R/-RW
* 16:9 / 4:3 picture select
* On-screen graphical user interface
* Slow motion function (2x - 4x - 8x)
* RW/FF play function (2x - 4x - 8x - 16x)
* VFD display


[ad#ad2-left]The price of the unit at Memorex is 269.99$.   I think this is a great buy if all you need is a blue ray player.  Cheaper than buying a PS3.  Although if you want to buy a PlayStation 3 to play games and also watch movies on it that is still a good deal.   So why buy this player,  this will  not play games and keep your happy.
Wednesday
Nov122008

A good free VPN Client -- OpenVPN & more

I've been doing some research on what might be good to use in case, I was away from my home network.  I was thinking how safe am I at Starbucks or other places that I might doing my web.  So I did a little looking around to see which one I liked and I came to the conclusions that only one I need right now is:

openvpn


The nice thing about this was the simple installation of the software and how easy it was to set it up. This service is in beta but seems to be really well done with regards to the end users. When you install this software and want to connect it uses the OpenVPN software with there configurations. OpenVPN, is a open sourced SSL VPN solution and is free to use. The way this this free is of Ad Supported banners. Now it is cheaper than paying monthly for a VPN service. The ones I've found so far are these few:




  • OpenVPN (FREE)(*advertisement)(Linux, and Windows)

  • Always VPN (Prepay) (5 GB to 80 GB limit) (Linux, Mac and Windows)*Out of Beta

  • Hotspot Shield (FREE) (*advertisement) (Windows) (3 gig Cap)

  • WiTopia (40$/ Year) (Mac, Linux, and Windows)


[ad]There is of course others out that but these are just a few that I saw that looks like the cheapest there is.  Others I've seen cost 40 to 50 dollars a month.   If you have any other ones that are free or cheap let me know.  I don't think we need to pay a lot just to have security on an open network. I'm certain that they're more out there but will keep looking for more later on. I did my initial research and will come back and find more.

*Update Feb 8, 2009*

As of recent a friend emailed me saying telling me to check the site out again and I did.  Not sure when they went out of Beta because I've not been using Always VPN lately due to my Broadband Cricket Prepay Internet.  I just checked and yes they are charging here's the break down:

  • 5GB - USD 8.50

  • 10GB - USD 15.00

  • 20GB - USD 26.00

  • 40GB - USD 33.00

  • 80GB - USD 47.00


So I must ask why they didn't just keep the 5 GB limit with the Advertising, I do not know but  I did want to let people know that it is no longer free and no longer in Beta.  I went from Always to OpenVPN which still works despite the fact they are using Always VPN back client.   It's open source so it will probably change to something else sooner or later.   If you see it changes let me know, I will update more when I find out more!!
Tuesday
Nov112008

AVG Detected a False Positive

[ad#ad2-left]According to Security and The Net:

An update for the AVG virus scanner released yesterday contained an incorrect virus signature, which led it to think user32.dll contained the Trojan Horses PSW.Banker4.APSA or Generic9TBN. AVG then recommended deleting this file; this causes the affected systems to either stop booting or go into a continuous reboot cycle. So far, the problem only appears to affect Windows XP, but there is no guarantee that other versions of Windows don’t have the same issue.

[Via Security and The Net]


[ad#ad2-right]I bring this up because this is a false positive according to AVG. AVG since sent out another update to there Database and you can go and update the database to get rid of this problem. If you need to restore that DLL check out the article Security and The Net, they got some excellent suggestions on fixing the problem.

If you've not been affected by this yet, you probably won't be. It is yet unknown how many people have been affected. I'm blogging about this to tell people about this and to warn people that not all of warnings from AVG are true and that is why you should always ask before you delete or do anything to your system. I always USE google when it comes to these types of questions
Sunday
Nov022008

Windows update is getting a revision!

[ad#ad2-right]According to Computer World, dated Oct 31, 2008 and I'll quote:
"Over the next couple of months, we'll be rolling out another infrastructure update to the Windows Update agent (client code)," said an unidentified Microsoft employee on the Windows Update team's official blog. "This update makes it possible for users to install more than 80 updates at the same time."

[via Computer World]

Now if your like me and have several computers who need to be updated at a given schedule, you sometimes worry about these updates that come along that might just break your system. I have been using a program call Offline Updater, which does what Autopatcher does really nicely. So why is Microsoft sending out this patch? Two reasons, one they want you to be able to update your operating System without hurting your system integrity.

Now lets talk about the integrity of having to reboot your system. You see, every time you reboot the system, it causes the system hardware some strain.  It is something like having starting up a car, sooner or later you will have the starter go out, because of to much start up.

[ad#ad2-left]Second reason for this is, basically the update software needs to be update yet again for any security flaws or features that might be exploitable.  I am sure there are some and Microsoft probably knows about that we do not.   So that is the second reason, which it is the most obvious reason yet to push out another revision of the Windows update.

What about stopping the update from effecting your system.  The only way that I know of is to prevent Windows from checking for updates.  Which is simple:

Windows XP Version:

[Category View and Classic View]


<Start> / Control Panel / Security / Click Windows Updates

For Windows Vista:

<Orb> / Control Panel/ Security Center/ Windows Update / click "change Settings"

With both ways, you will be able to control four ways to handle Windows updating and they are:

  • Automatic - Will download all necessary updates and install them without your permission or knowledge.  Note some of the updates will automatically reboot your system.  Most commonly they are set to do this every day in the 12am to 4 am period of time.   So when you wake up you would see an log in screen.

  • [ad#ad2-right]
  • Download updates but let me choice which ones to install and when -  This is most commonly used by people who don't want to bother having to check manually.  It will check and download, then it will let you know.



  • Check for updates but don't Download them -  This is like the previous one but this will only tell you.  The rest of the decision is in your hands not the computer.  This is good for people who have limited system resources, like Hard drive space.  It still reminds you like the previous one but won't download any updates.



  • Never check for updates -  This is used for people who don't want to be bothered with updates and have a way to update manually.  This is commonly used by businesses who have several systems on and don't want to risk an update causing trouble or weigh down the companies internet by downloading updates un-necessarily.   This option is not to be messed with because it leaves your system with quite a lot of vulnerabilities.  You do this one if you have a set schedule to update each and everyone system. (Extremely Dangerous to do)


With what I talked about, I am hoping you find this useful and to share your discoveries with other people who might want to be able to change how Windows updates are handled on other systems.  If you have comments or questions, please post them in the comment section and someone will be more than glad to help you out.
Monday
Oct272008

Microsoft reveals "Microsoft Azure"

Windows Azure is part of a set of new and existing technologies behind the Azure Services Platform, a development and execution platform that runs end-user and corporate software on Microsoft's own servers, accessible over the web. It joins Google's App Engine and Amazon's EC2 in an increasingly competitive market.

[Via ZDnet]

[ad]


Although,  There isn't much more they have said I am quite curious how they will interegrate this into the cloud computing.  According to Microsoft, it won't run on the company server but  Microsoft Datacenter.  Now this I can see is a big security problem.   Because most companies use what they call an Intranet and not the internet.  So that leaves questions on if companies are going to use this system or not.   Are you ready to let your information float somewhere over the inernet tht is SENSITIVE and CONFIDENTIAL?   These are the questions that Microsoft will have to Answer, before any company will use this on there systems.

Friday
Oct242008

Is Hulu encouraging people to watch shows illegally?

Hulu Walkthrough

[ad]

I've been scouring Hulu for the last few days and come up with some interesting observation.   I wanted to talk about Hulu's commitment to its users.   I don't say that lightly but just recently the distributors and the copyright holders only have been putting up a few episodes here and there on old shows like:

Some of the comments I've seen have been talking about watching the rest of the shows from other sources:

[ad]

Now let's start off saying that it really isn't Hulu's fault, because they can only make available what the publishers says are available for the public.   Some of this suggest to me that the publishers are trying to make us go buy the DVD's.  Hasn't it been said that DVD sales are dead?   So why are the publishers doing this, they want the money and what they want usually happens unless we stand back and take a stand.    I am encouraging everyone to write Hulu and Tell them what you think.   I would like to see these shows come more quickly and be more available.   If not what other choices do the people have?

So here are a few links to better help you understand Hulu's rights and why they do what they do sometimes: